WHEN YOU SHOP for meals—whether or not produce or meat or eggs—and see a label that claims “natural,” what do you suppose which means? At its most basic degree, I suppose I at all times thought it meant greens grown on the fields of an natural farm—like, within the soil, or animals raised in its pastures.
However more and more, as hydroponics have turn out to be extra widespread, soil isn’t at all times a part of the natural food-raising equation.
At the moment’s visitor is Linley Dixon, a Colorado-based natural farmer who can also be co-director of the Actual Natural Venture, an advocacy group of farmers who develop within the soil and collectively search to guard the integrity of the natural label’s that means on meals. Actual Natural Venture is holding a daylong convention Oct.14 in Hudson, N.Y., with a terrific lineup of presenters from the natural neighborhood, and we’ll hear about that, too.
Learn alongside as you hearken to the Oct. 2, 2023 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
the true natural undertaking, with linley dixon
Margaret Roach: Hello, Linley, thanks for coming in from the greenhouses and the fields to assist and discuss to me about this. Thanks.
Linley Dixon: Hello, Margaret. I’ve been a very long time fan of the podcast and your writings.
Margaret: Yeah. So once more, you’d suppose I’d know this stuff. Having been a vegetarian most of my life and having been a client of natural merchandise ceaselessly and ever and so forth, you’d suppose I will surely be alerted. However till speaking to you over latest years, I actually didn’t perceive the distinctions. And that is one thing that’s not only for greens and herbs and so forth, however for pasture-raised animals, for even blueberries—blueberries could be executed with out soil. And so inform us a bit about what Actual Natural Venture is, and what the muse of it’s, and the way it received began. What was the impetus?
Linley: Positive. Proud to do it. At its coronary heart, it’s a farmer-led motion. So I’m the co-director with Vermont tomato farmer that you could be know of as a result of he’s nearer to you, Dave Chapman. He’s most likely the most effective natural tomato farmers within the nation. And he grows tomatoes underneath about 2-1/2 acres of those Dutch-style glass greenhouses within the soil, which you must differentiate now. You didn’t must underneath the Natural Customary. However in recent times—and he was the one which began to note this as a result of he actually does promote quite a lot of wholesale—he was competing with tomatoes that type of tasteless and mealy and discovered that they had been hydroponic.
And he thought, “Effectively, that’s a mistake.” And I really met him when he had raised the difficulty with a bunch of different farmers, largely in New England, but it surely was spreading throughout the nation that hydroponics was being allowed. And if you’re an natural farmer, you’re just about all consumed with the well being of your soil. And so this actually struck a chord with quite a lot of farmers throughout the nation. So I met him at these conferences the place we had been attempting to reform the natural program and guarantee that natural stayed targeted on soil well being.
Margaret: Proper. As a result of as an natural gardener for many years, and in my writing and in my pondering, I consider that what you simply stated. I consider “feed the soil, not the plant,” that I’m constructing soil well being, and that’s the muse from whom all blessings circulation. You already know what I imply? That’s the premise of the entire meals chain, the entire life chain, so to talk. So it surprises me that rising hydroponically can be natural. So the natural normal was what from the mid-’90s or one thing, the nationwide standards-
Linley: They wrote the legislation, the Natural Meals Manufacturing Act in 1990, but it surely took 10 years to really create requirements based mostly on that legislation, and it was a really democratic, farmer-led course of. And so there have been quite a lot of skeptical farmers in the beginning, as a result of the USDA hasn’t at all times cherished or supported natural, and so they had been nervous at hand it over to them. However as a result of the method included this concept of a Nationwide Natural Requirements Board and there was going to be quite a lot of stakeholder suggestions within the course of, the farmers received on board. And it was in 2000 that they began implementing to type of the nationwide normal. In fact, there have been at all times these, and I’m certain in your space it’s the NOFAs and the MOFGAs, however there’s out west the CCOF; all of them had their very own requirements. And the concept was to have type of a normal throughout the nation that was the identical.
To make a protracted story brief, I believe all of the farmers got here collectively across the hydroponic problem. However there have been issues from the very starting, the place the USDA didn’t actually implement the requirements, despite the fact that the legislation is a very good normal, the enforcement was missing from the very starting, largely round getting animals out on pasture. I imply, they had been certifying these massive hen barns. And it’s to the purpose the place if you enable a decrease normal, it actually drives out the upper normal, simply because underneath the identical label, it’s a less expensive technique of manufacturing.
Margaret: Proper. In fact. In fact. And so what you simply hinted at is that this isn’t simply hydroponic versus within the soil for vegetation, it’s additionally animals raised in barns, in buildings, primarily, enclosed, that aren’t pasture-raised. And so for these of us who love going to the native suppliers the place we reside and seeing it says that—I imply, the phrases was once issues like “free-range” or no matter, but it surely’ll say “pasture-fed” or no matter it says that makes you at all times suppose, “Oh, that’s higher.” You’re prepared to pay the premium value as a result of you’ll be able to visualize that. And this, despite the fact that a few of these animals, and the eggs from chickens, and a number of the meats and so forth could be labeled natural, the animals weren’t residing in that imagined idyllic for situation in any respect [laughter]. And but they’re natural.
Linley: And many individuals are shocked that we grew to become an add-on normal. It’s like if it’s gone so improper, why would we require natural certification first? However what we see with these different phrases, such as you talked about, issues like pasture or animal welfare, it’s like in the event you don’t have a normal—it’s taking place to “regenerative” proper now—then it simply will get so simply co-opted. So there really is a very good legislation in place. And so the concept of making a normal can be the hope is to really apply strain for reform in order that we are able to save all this work that actually farmers have labored on over the course of their lifetime.
Margaret: So that you’re a farmer, you’ve been an natural farmer, you’re in Colorado, you increase greens. How massive is your farm and the way lengthy have you ever been doing it? Any specialties? Is there something that you just’re only a super-expert in [laughter]?
Linley: Effectively, Dave and I hit it off as a result of we’re each tomato farmers at our core. I imply, he began with oxen and each vegetable you’ll be able to think about, and actually specialised in tomatoes. However we nonetheless have many various crops on our farm. However Dave really mentored me within the final 5 years for find out how to develop tomatoes higher in a greenhouse. And it actually modified the economics of our farm. And it’s one thing that I believe anyone can do really in the event that they study a number of little methods, at the same time as a house gardener, issues like grafting and even simply trellising so that you just’re harvesting at eye degree, that transforms actually the convenience of find out how to produce tomatoes, after which additionally simply whether or not or not they rot on the bottom or on the vegetation. In the event that they cut up, you actually can get double the yield fairly simply with some fundamental methods.
Margaret: So that you stated greenhouse and earlier than if you had been speaking about Dave Chapman’s operation, you stated greenhouse otherwise you stated… Really you didn’t name it greenhouses, you call-
Linley: Glass greenhouses.
Margaret: Glass greenhouses, proper. And so simply once more, so individuals visualize, we’re speaking about on prime of soil, so it’s to manage different components. And tomatoes particularly I believe have quite a lot of points—as everyone knows, who develop them [laughter]—with fungal illnesses and soil splash and spores shifting up the ladder of the leaves from the underside to the highest, and all types of issues. And I’m completely oversimplifying, however within the extra managed atmosphere that you just’re describing, and it may even be a excessive tunnel, I suppose, a easy, not-greenhouse-but-greenhouse, we are able to management a bit extra of that. And an increasing number of farmers have gone to that, and even a few of my backyard pals have gone to that a minimum of attempting to reduce a number of the havoc. The havoc.
Linley: Even one thing so simple as grafting will double your yields, and that you may really do. I do it with a bit Johnny’s stand the place there’s a tent that goes over the seedling stand. And so a few of these methods are literally fairly straightforward to adapt by yourself gardens.
Margaret: So that you’re grafting the tomato, the number of tomato, you want to eat, to reap, onto a rootstock that’s sturdier and extra immune to issues. Is that what you’re doing?
Linley: Proof against issues, but additionally simply meant to develop actually massive and robust.
Margaret: O.Ok. So each.
Linley: So the roots simply get a a lot larger space within the soil.
Margaret: Proper. In order a longtime natural farmer—and we each agreed that “feed the soil, not the plant” is the muse of natural agriculture, whether or not in a backyard setting or a farm setting. However are there different issues that you’d say to this viewers listening who’re dwelling gardeners principally, which are the foundational rules that you just observe that be just right for you? Whether or not the littler hints, like the particular one you simply spoke about, say grafting, or that you just’re rising in a greenhouse, however different issues that you just suppose are actually foundational to success in natural rising?
Linley: Yeah. Dave at all times advised me it’s not anyone tip, but it surely’s the fruits of all of my information that makes this all work. However one that actually caught with me is he taught me to really use my compost purposes by making use of them each two to 3 weeks from a bucket [above]. Simply sprinkle the compost proper on prime of the drip strains (that’s how we irrigate our tomatoes, due to all that soil splash). Try this as a substitute of including all of the compost in the beginning of the season, which could create an anaerobic atmosphere relying on how scorching your compost is, however actually simply sprinkle it on prime of the drip strains. Each couple of weeks creates a good launch from the compost of vitamins. I bear in mind Eliot Coleman, who’s an advisor to our undertaking, and I received to satisfy him. He gave me the perfect definition of natural farming that I’ve ever heard, and it was so easy, so it simply actually caught.
He stated that “natural farming is so simple as including natural matter to the soil.” And I imply, that’s simply says all of it. as a result of if that’s taking place, you’re mitigating the necessity for any of those exterior fertilizers and even pest management, as a result of in the event you’re listening to the soil natural matter actually locks up and slow-releases vitamins. In order that means, I’m certain you’ve seen, Margaret, in the event you apply an excessive amount of nitrogen, the aphids come, the bugs come. So that spotlight to how a lot, how slowly these vitamins are launched, that’s the prevention that natural farmers…
And there’s some insurance coverage in that natural matter that it’ll be launched over time. So you’ve got much more flexibility. You will get issues improper within the natural matter, type of modifications it for you so it finally ends up understanding accurately. I believe that definition, in the event you can preserve that in thoughts, I imply it’s natural farming, the farming of carbon. Natural chemistry is the chemistry of carbon. So desirous about all of that natural matter, that’s what natural farming is.
Margaret: So Eliot Coleman, you stated, and he’s an advisor to Actual Natural Venture, and quite a lot of us gardeners know him from his actually necessary books, one of many early voices for natural, not simply farming-
Linley: For gardening.
Margaret: Sure, precisely. And to inform us about his ways. And so he wrote actually, actually necessary works and has been an inspiration to many through the years. So no shock that he’s on board with this.
So that you stated you simply used the phrase “paying consideration,” and never in the identical means I’m going to ask you about it. However I additionally suppose that’s one of many issues is that—and I take advantage of the expression “you’ll be able to’t set it and overlook it”—when you find yourself the steward of residing issues, you’ll be able to’t simply stick them within the floor or sow the seed after which stroll away and return at harvest time [laughter]. I believe vigilance is one other actually necessary talent and tactic of an natural grower, particularly who’s not going to have the ability to rush in with some “treatment,” some chemical treatment, if issues begin to go off. However watching I believe is absolutely necessary. And I assume that you’ve a vigilance practice-
Linley: You do-
Margaret: … on the farm.
Linley: … otherwise you get in hassle, proper?
Margaret: Sure. So to me, that’s one other one of many issues.
Linley: I believe scale is an attention-grabbing problem in natural. They’ve by no means actually restricted scale, however I believe inherently it’s scale-limiting as a result of we discuss of as farmers, the eyes-to-acres ratio. You’ll be able to’t let the acreage get so massive that in the event you’re a standard farm and also you miss a pest outbreak within the nook of a discipline 100 miles away or 100 acres away, you’re all proper, you’ll be able to simply go get a sprig for that pest. However as an natural farmer, you don’t have that as type of a straightforward repair, so that you do, you must examine.
We really had a whitefly outbreak this 12 months and we’ve by no means had that. And also you’ve received to catch it early and so they can take out a whole crop. And so we’ve received bio-control that’s a part of that course of. You place little sticky tape over the areas or proper within the areas the place you see the outbreak, and you must get on it early. As a result of we even have completely different greenhouses, and a few of them are hoop homes and in our hoop home we missed it, and it took the crop out. And in our greenhouse, we had been in a position to catch it and use this bio-control course of.
So yeah, simply preserving on prime of it, we don’t have that straightforward repair, so we lose our crop if we miss it. And that’s a part of why biodiversity is so key, as a result of if we do lose one thing as a result of a very dangerous 12 months for a pest, then actually, our enterprise doesn’t depend upon needing a sprig. We will simply let that crop go, and it’s an excellent 12 months for one thing else.
Margaret: Proper. Yeah. So, I imply, tomatoes, it sounds such as you’ve upped the sport and also you’ve found out methods to get round a number of the main points with these, I really feel like… Are there different crops which are necessary ones in your choices or is that the first driver of the enterprise?
Linley: That’s the one which actually makes all of it work, financially. However I’m experimenting as a result of within the greenhouses you’ll be able to’t develop your individual fertility, we actually depend upon compost for our fertility. However out within the fields, I’ve been experimenting currently with find out how to have our aisles in order that they’re creating the fertility for the rows fcompostAnd that’s been actually enjoyable to observe, as a result of what’s occurred is the aisles have expanded a bit bit extra, and our complete cropping method has modified. And what we do is we mow the aisles into the rows after which we’ll incorporate that “inexperienced manure” is what farmers name it, that type of cowl crop.
We incorporate that into the rows, however you don’t wish to mow them suddenly since you need a few of them to flower. And the bio-control that is available in on the flowering weeds from the aisles is fairly superior to observe.
So so long as you’ll be able to preserve that biology biking, that’s one thing that’s new on our farm that I’ve been type of obsessive about. As a result of in the event you can develop your individual fertility on the farm, then you definitely don’t have to fret about any… You deliver stuff in off the farm and it might need herbicide carryover, or there are environmental points with the place it was harvested or mined. So it’s type of the very best degree of environmental stewardship is in the event you can determine find out how to develop your individual fertility on the farm. And I haven’t perfected it. I don’t know if I ever will, but it surely’s been enjoyable to strive.
Margaret: That’s attention-grabbing. So that you’re in a way rising a few of your cowl crops, as you say, within the aisles in between the rows the place you or machines-
Linley: Stroll.
Margaret: … would stroll or drive. Fascinating.
Linley: It’s lovely as a result of then the tractor wheels are at all times going over pasture on naked dust, so there’s resiliency there. However you additionally don’t lose any area actually to develop that fertility as a result of it’s really the place you’re strolling anyway, and also you don’t must weed it too. That’s a gorgeous factor.
Margaret: Fascinating. So in doing the Actual Natural Venture, do you discover that when you’ve got occasions—such as you’re having one really not removed from me in Columbia County New York in mid-October, which has a terrific lineup of audio system and so forth. However do you discover that if you exit and also you current and discuss to individuals about Actual Natural Venture, are there some astonished? Is it the identical couple of questions each time, or the identical aghast seems [laughter] about the identical side of it?
As a result of for me, one of many issues was, and I discussed it on the very starting rapidly, the truth that blueberries had been being grown hydroponically—I imply, even woody vegetation, have you learnt what I imply? Even shrubs. As a result of to me, talking of helpful bugs and having an atmosphere, a biodiverse atmosphere, I imply, blueberries, wow. These are a few of my helper vegetation right here within the backyard. They entice pollinators and so they simply do all types of excellent issues moreover making blueberries [laughter].
Linley: Yeah. They reside most likely 40, 50 years. However we have now an incredible podcast. And so everyone is in a distinct degree of understanding of those points. And so I’d suggest listening to that podcast in the event you’re confused by this and wish to perceive it higher. And Hugh Kent, who’s a blueberry farmer, he has a few them. His most up-to-date was a chat at Eco Farm, and really in the event you can watch that one, as a result of you’ll be able to see his slides, it’s fairly stunning the environmental impression of those hydroponic farms. They usually’re actually plastic, on plastic, on plastic, these massive sandwiches, and all of the fertility is coming in.
After which the vegetation are executed in 4 to 5 years, the whole plastic farm will get thrown out, after which they begin it over once more. So the environmental impression is fairly extreme, and it’ll provide help to perceive the best way an natural farmer thinks. We interview quite a lot of farmers, however there’s cooks and authors on there, too. It simply helps you suppose extra holistically how natural farmers are desirous about their farm. And it would provide help to perceive why issues like grazing and soil well being are so necessary to us.
Margaret: Yeah. So you’ve got, what, possibly 1,200 farms who’re members of the Actual Natural Venture at this level all in numerous areas of the nation, is that proper?
Linley: Yeah. And these are farmers which are agreeing to a different inspection on prime of the USDA inspection that’s a part of this program. In order that’s fairly astonishing to see how rapidly it’s grown in such a short while. Farmers get this, they perceive the necessity for this. [Below, the USDA organic label, and the Real Organic Project one each require a separate inspection.]
Margaret: I wished to ask you extra about that. So I believe on the convention in October, you’ll do one of many displays, and I believe you’re going to speak about type of what units these member farmers aside and the way can customers assist them, and assist the work of this group. So inform us a bit bit concerning the spotlight reel of that a part of the convention.
Linley: Yeah. I believe most individuals would simply wish to hear what we’re making certain in the event you search for this sticker. And so we did discuss concerning the soil well being and pasturing, however we additionally be sure that the entire farm is assembly these natural, these increased natural practices, as a result of there’s quite a lot of fraud that occurs when you’ve got a cut up operation, when you’ve got some standard manufacturing and a few natural. And one of many greatest ones, there was only a few acres of natural manufacturing that had an natural seal, after which quite a lot of standard stuff went via that natural certificates. So the entire farm must be natural.
There are employee welfare protections. So that is actually simply type of pushing the bar ahead. Actually when the farmers stopped being concerned and simply handed it over to the USDA, that complete idea of steady enchancment underneath the seal that we actually had with our regional chapters went away. So we’re simply attempting to deliver that again, and proceed to enhance over time.
Margaret: And non-farmers—how do customers interact with Actual Natural Venture? I imply, I assume it’s a nonprofit, so that you most likely have donors, and do individuals simply attend your occasions and assist these farmers and-
Linley: We’ve received this nice web site, so go to the web site. You’ll be able to see the convention that’s at Churchtown Dairy on October 14th, very first thing. After which we’re really releasing a brand new web site in a few month, however you’ll be able to go now. There’s a ton of movies, podcasts, the letters. Now we have one thing known as Actual Associates the place it’s a e book membership, however a part of this group is to ask eaters to assist the farmers alongside. And that may imply simply telling your folks about your favourite podcast episodes, or going to your co-op and saying, “Do you’ve got any Actual Natural merchandise?” In order that hopefully your farmers domestically can get a bit little bit of an edge as a result of they’re actually having hassle getting markets and the value level is so low, so you’ll be able to assist them out by requesting actual natural merchandise in your shops too.
Margaret: You’re in Colorado, and what zone are you technically, the place you farm?
Linley: Oh gosh, there are such a lot of microclimates. So I’d say we’re a 6-something, but it surely is dependent upon the 12 months, and local weather modifications creating all types of modifications.
Margaret: It’s. It’s.
Linley: So I don’t even know anymore.
Margaret: Yeah. So that you talked about tomatoes. So are you winding down your season or do you do off season crops as effectively? Do you have-
Linley: So the humorous factor right here is definitely it doesn’t get actually within the single digits so far as chilly, however our season’s actually brief, as a result of we’re excessive elevation. So we received our first frost most likely this weekend. It’s at all times across the third week of September. And our final frost is, oh gosh, in the midst of June typically. So we have now a few 90-day window, which is wow.
Margaret: Wow!
Linley: And we get these type of passing hailstorms too as a result of that’s what occurs within the mountains. In order that’s why I’ve all of those completely different ranges of tunnels. And even out within the discipline, we have now quite a lot of Reemay and methods to guard the crops on the sector.
Margaret: Fascinating. Effectively, Linley Dixon, co-director of the Actual Natural Venture, thanks for giving us a 101 on this topic. Very, very counterintuitive to suppose that natural doesn’t imply grown within the soil, however thanks for alerting us to that. And I hope I’ll discuss to you once more quickly.
Linley: Thanks a lot, Margaret,
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