IF YOU THINK you recognize what a cucumber is, assume once more. Spend even 5 minutes on the web site of The Cucumber Store, a ardour challenge of cucumber-mad Jay Tracy, and also you’ll notice that you just don’t in any respect. The unimaginable range of cucumbers was the subject for a latest dialog Jay and I had.
California-based Jay Tracy is a instructor and a father of 4 teenagers, and in addition the individual behind the gathering of remarkable and strange cucumbers known as The Cucumber Store, a mail-order seed catalog he created about 10 years in the past, and that advanced into cucumbershop dot com in 2019.
Learn alongside as you hearken to the January 23, 2023 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
loopy cucumbers, with jay tracy
Margaret Roach: How are you, Jay?
Jay Tracy: Doing properly, Margaret. Thanks so much. I’m excited to have the ability to assist folks uncover cucumbers which have been right here all alongside.
Margaret: There are all these historic, wonderful varieties. So how lengthy have you ever been accumulating cucumbers?
Jay: So simply to provide a bit little bit of background: Since round 2008 properly, 2007 was when my final youngster was born, and I gave up one other passion for this. And what I made a decision to do was simply attempt to develop. However I lived in Tucson, and it’s very onerous to develop in Tucson. You possibly can develop some issues, however not very a lot. In the course of the summer time it’s very, very onerous; tomatoes are very onerous. However one factor that grew properly had been Armenian cucumbers.
So I began in all probability in about 2008, 2009 to start out rising Armenian cucumbers. And I favored them. After which there was a gentleman named George Brookbank. He was huge in gardening down in Southern Arizona, and all through Arizona.
And he informed me, why don’t you attempt the serpentine cucumber? So I discovered what we name the Striped Armenian or Painted Serpent—it’s known as by numerous names. After which it simply went from there. I attached with some Italian pals, and round 2012 I imagine they discovered my weblog. After which I began getting extra varieties and sending them again recent seed of issues I develop in isolation, and persevering with to develop friendships and develop cucumbers-
Margaret: That’s good.
Jay: … and loving it, as a result of they’re really easy and, thus far. [Below, the Painted Serpent, sliced.]
Margaret: So now I counted on the homepage of the web site cucumbershop dot com, I believe there are, I don’t know, 60 choices or one thing this 12 months. There’s so much. It appeared like there have been so much; I don’t know what number of precisely. And also you develop a few of the seed, I believe it says, and there’s an exquisite informational part of the web site that’s known as the Cucumber-pedia. Is that proper?
Jay: One thing like that, yeah. That complete factor is with the person varieties that I provide, I’m attempting to ultimately get round to writing the histories. As a result of a few of them do have histories. Most of them return a whole bunch and a whole bunch of years, and so these have been grown since Historical Egypt. And the common cucumber that we all know of from India solely got here round with the Islamic affect in Spain that introduced cucumbers from India via that commerce route. And possibly the primary actual proof they’ve of these kinds of cucumbers in literature or drawings is in about 1300. So any reference to cucumbers earlier than then are these items that we’re speaking about.
Margaret: So we will do some mini minute or two of taxonomy. However most of us consider cucumbers because the lengthy inexperienced issues within the grocery store, or on the produce shelf or in pickle jars, smaller variations, in pickle jars. And I believe that’s, is it Cucumis sativus, is that proper?
Jay: Sure, sativus, proper.
Margaret: Is that this species, and that’s Asian as you mentioned, from India initially, is that right?
Jay: Someplace round there, sure, precisely. So in Historical Egypt and all through a few of the Center East, we’ve got melon. And this melon is grown to be picked immature, as one thing that has excessive water content material and is crisp but tender and scrumptious. And right here in America, an actual gentle lengthy one is known as an Armenian cucumber, due to the Armenian affect. Quite a lot of the world would name them snake melons.
After which the shorter ones, the shorter ones are normally grown principally in Southern Italy. And people are known as Carosello, however the lengthy snake melons are Cucumis melo selection flexuosus. And the shorter ones are known as adzur or chate. However they will all intermingle. In case you had been to develop them facet by facet, they’d cross. [Below Carosello Tondo Massafrese, one of the Carosello types.]
Margaret: Sure. As a result of they’re promiscuous, these naughty cucumbers.
Jay: Sure. However you’ll be able to develop these subsequent to common cucumbers and so they gained’t cross.
Margaret: So, there’s these two species, the one which we’re extra accustomed to within the grocery retailer, and the American plate is sativus, the species sativus. And that’s Asian. After which this melo, originates in Africa, I believe. Is that right?
Jay: Sure.
Margaret: So did you simply say Egypt or…? So they arrive from two elements of the world, and due to this fact have diversifications to completely different cultural necessities, I assume inherent in them. And you’ve got one image, at the least one on the web site, the place there’s an enormous tray of cucumbers [laughter] and there’s lengthy ones and twisty ones, and tiny little spherical ones and greater spherical ones. And striped ones and stable inexperienced ones and noticed one; it’s wonderful.
Jay: Precisely. So there’s a complete bunch of various… It’s virtually like, you see a tomato for the primary time and also you assume a tomato is pink and spherical, and that’s all you consider it. And then you definitely see a tray of those heirloom tomatoes, you see all various things. That’s sort of what we’ve acquired right here.
So simply to return as to what these items are, I usually discuss with them as cucumber melons or melon cucumbers. They’re virtually identical as a cantaloupe or honeydew. They’re a muskmelon, and it’s picked a zucchini, so it’s picked immature, only a zucchini. And a whole lot of them cluster within the crown of the plant like a zucchini. After which that first crop, you get a cluster fruit from the center of the plant, after which later crops you get additional on.
So it’s a melon, it’s grown like a zucchini, however you eat it like a cucumber and it tastes identical to a cucumber, besides it’s all the time bitter-free, and simple on the digestion.
Margaret: Nevertheless it’s in the identical species as a cantaloupe. That’s this Cucumis melo, the cantaloupe is in there, too. So it’s botanically a melon, however as you say, agriculturally a cucumber.
Jay: Proper. Simply as tomatoes are…
Margaret: They’re fruit, however we eat them like a vegetable.
Jay: Precisely.
Margaret: So I think about that as you’ve networked increasingly more and made new pals, as you mentioned earlier and so forth, and other people tried your seeds–and particularly with all of the curiosity in heirloom crops and strange crops and heritage kind crops–I’d think about that for some folks, there’s no going again. They’re not going to return to the plain previous straight inexperienced sativus cucumber. I think about that is going to catch their consideration, and so they’re going to need extra, extra, extra. Is that what’s been taking place?
Jay: So initially it’ll catch their consideration as a result of it’s very fairly. However what actually makes me proceed to develop them is as a result of they’re actually good. And I’ve market farmers who I promote seed to, and I’ve simply common growers that I promote seed to, and so they’re like, “I can’t purchase a cucumber from the shop anymore. I can’t develop English or Lebanese cucumbers anymore. I can solely develop your stuff as a result of it’s so good.” Which is nice. However on the identical time, it is without doubt one of the drawbacks [laughter].
Margaret: And are these all vine crops or any of them bush kind, or how do they appear as a plant? [Above, Tondo di Manduria, or Fabio’s Mandurian Round.]
Jay: So if we’re speaking in regards to the snake melons, many of the snake melons are just about vine-y, and several other of the Carosello are. However a whole lot of the Carosello are like, you’ll consider them, they develop like zucchini in that they’re be very bushy, extra bushy than common cucumbers to start with. Very compact. A few of them stay compact all through their life, however most of them, that first set of fruit, they’ll be extremely compact. After which after you harvest that first cluster of fruit, then they’re going to develop out extra.
Margaret: However apart from that, we develop them the identical approach. And they also’re warm-season crops, which for these of us in a cooler space than you’re, that’s in all probability extra vital. In order that they’re warm-season crops. Do you begin them indoors? Do you direct seed them? Are there another particulars of rising that you just wish to share?
Jay: So perhaps I may speak about the best way to take care of them, after which speak about some pluses and minuses in comparison with common cucumbers.
So after you’ve gotten some seed, you’ve in all probability ought to find out once you wish to plant. After which they do prefer it hotter than common cucumbers, and it’s actually smart to start out by simply pre-sprouting or germinating your seed, in a perfect situations. I simply put my seed in a folded paper towel and a Ziploc [below], add a bit little bit of water and put it about 80 levels Fahrenheit. After which I test it each 12 hours. After which when it begins to sprout, that’s once I put it in both one thing that I’m going to transplant with, or within the floor.
I like to speak about what the plant wants. And the seeds like heat, moist, round 80 levels. The vegetation themselves have very delicate roots. So if you happen to’re pondering of transplanting, you’re going to need to keep away from disturbing the roots. I exploit soil blocks, that works for me. However the peat pots and netted peat, that doesn’t work very properly [laughter]. Only for these of you on the market that-
Margaret: Pulls the roots aside.
Jay: Yeah. However the vegetation typically actually prefer it heat above the bottom, and considerably dry and moist but cool beneath the bottom. The warmer it’s day and night time. If it’s heat nights, they’ll simply continue to grow rather well.
After which relating to the fruit, if you happen to’re choosing the fruit to devour it, you in all probability wish to decide, if it’s any cylindrical fruit, like a few of the Carosello, at about 1-1/2 to 2 inches in diameter. And that’s the factor with these, you’re trying on the diameter with each the Carosello and the snake melons. You decide it by the diameter, not by the size. And so that you don’t need it to get too huge in diameter, in all probability 1-1/2 to 2 inches in diameter. After which the spherical ones, you’re in all probability taking a look at 3 to 4 inches. However a whole lot of them you’ll be able to let go a bit longer. It’s simply the standard is healthier at that state.
Margaret: So I simply wish to dip again for a second to the, once you had been giving the rising directions, and also you had been speaking about germinating them at 80 levels and so forth, and that they’re not cold-tolerant in any respect, that we’re speaking in regards to the species melo, those which can be, as a result of a whole lot of us we all know with sativus, with the normal cucumbers, we may even direct seed them as soon as we let the soil warmup, whereas these need a bit extra TLC at the start. After which I simply need…
Jay: In case you’re planting in June or July, you’ll be able to plant straight within the floor.
Margaret:, So the opposite factor I needed simply say is–as a result of it’s so much, there’s a complete language to this and so forth–however snake melons versus Carosello. Inform us once more who’s who a bit bit, describe them a bit bit.
Jay: So if you recognize something about Armenian cucumbers, that’s a snake melon. You’re taking a look at one thing that’s lengthy and skinny or longer and thinner. After which a whole lot of the snake melons are world record-holders for size [laughter], so that they get actually lengthy. After which what we name Carosello, the Cucumis melo selection adzur or chate, they’re smaller, and so they’re like these little cylindrical cucumbers–normally cylindrical, typically oval, typically spherical–however they’re smaller.
And what we’re searching for there may be texture. I’ve one selection, the Striped Carosello Leccese [below]. In Italy, they name it the Meloncella Fasciata. It was apparently grown for generations for high quality. It’s wonderful what the Italians may do. However you’re searching for a very nice texture, crisp, but tender. Simply scrumptious.
Margaret: So the Carosellos, are they nonetheless standard in sure elements of Italy? Are these historically grown nonetheless, or…?
Jay: Sure. In order that’s actually neat. So all all through Europe, the place they grew all these cucumber melons, all of them died off as the brand new cucumber was launched, the Indian versus the African cucumber. So the Indian cucumber, it’s actually good for storage, actually good for transport-
Margaret: The pores and skin is harder. And that helps?
Jay: Yeah. Particularly these older… You develop a few of these older Indian cucumbers and so they’re made to retailer. That’s what they’re there for, is you retailer them. You possibly can decide them immature, however if you happen to allow them to sit on the vine later, they will retailer and you’ll eat them later, which is a good factor if you happen to’re coping with famine or no matter.
However if you happen to’re coping with high quality, and if you happen to’re coping with freshness and high quality and stuff, there’s no comparability with the opposite [laughter].
And one different distinction between common cucumbers and these, in addition to the feel and issues, you’ll be able to eat the pores and skin of those, it’s actual skinny pores and skin and actual good. However common cucumbers could have the spines or one thing like that. These, a whole lot of melons, have fuzz on them. They name them trichomes, these little tiny hairs. They’re actually not a lot, however there are a pair varieties, the Mezzo Lungo, they develop them particularly to have extra hair, extra fuzzy. So there’s a little bit of a fuzz issue, which is enjoyable, however…
Margaret: Oh, fascinating. In order that’s most popular in some circumstances by folks? [Below, trichomes on Carosello Leccese Light.]
Jay: Yeah.
Margaret: Oh, fascinating.
Jay: After which there’s others which can be virtually utterly hairless.
Margaret: These little issues that lately that lot of American backyard bloggers and vegetable growers and social media and stuff have gotten enthusiastic about are cucamelons [Mexican gherkins, Melothria scabra]. They appear to be a mini, tiny watermelon. So is that one in all these items, does that slot in right here?
Jay: No. So the cucamelon, or, let’s see… So the cucamelon comes from Mexico and that space. It’s a really distant cousin. Personally, I’m going to say this and people of you who grew cucamelon hate me for this, however to me, the style of it’s sort of like a cucumber rind. And the feel’s not that nice, however they do rather well if you happen to’re going additional into the season till your first frost. They will actually do properly afterward on this season, when you’ll be able to’t develop different cucumbers or melons. So I’ll give them that [laughter], and so they’re cute. They’re actually cute and enjoyable. They’re.
Margaret: Nevertheless it doesn’t match into the identical species, these two.
Jay: No.
Margaret: It’s a barely completely different animal. It’s a cucurbit of some variety, nevertheless it’s not in the identical… world.
Jay: It’s not. It’s even distantly associated to squash as properly. It’s sort of on the market.
Margaret: I guess you’ve got a cucumber beetle routine [laughter]. You do have cucumber beetles, I believe, even in California, don’t you?
Jay: Yeah. I simply exit early within the morning once they’re nonetheless chilly, after which if you happen to scare them or they really feel any sort of menace, they’ll simply drop straight there. As a result of once they’re chilly, they don’t actually transfer so much, so that you simply contact them and so they drop. And our cucumber beetles additionally carry viruses right here as properly, so I do be careful for them.
Margaret: So that you allow them to drop right into a pile of water or soapy water, a cup of water or one thing like that?
Jay: Or my hand or whatnot, if there’s only a couple.
Margaret: Early morning whereas the electrical tea kettle is on, I undoubtedly am on the market doing that. That’s vital. And it’s vital as a result of a whole lot of the cucurbits, that’s the actuality, relying on what a part of the nation you’re in, they do have pests–squash bugs and cucumber beetles and so forth and so forth. And so protecting forward of that’s the key, don’t you assume? Not turning a blind eye, however having a routine every day to test.
Jay: So with me and my backyard, it’s sort of just like the backyard is a instructor; the backyard teaches me what it wants or the way it’s doing. Within the vegetation, there’s this interplay that occurs between me and the vegetation. And what’s good about these, is that they’re fairly forgiving, and I can watch. As you go on the market, you watch the vegetation day after day, they sort of inform you what they want, and you’ll change issues up primarily based on regardless of the backyard wants.
Margaret: So that you’re a collector, and whether or not we’re accumulating a specific kind of bric-a-brac [laughter] or accumulating baseball playing cards or accumulating cucumber seeds, collectors have a ardour, they ferret out the following motherlode, networking, as you mentioned at the start, making new pals. What’s the path that you just’re on the hunt for? So that you in all probability learn in historic, agricultural or meals literature. I don’t know. Do you examine these items? You go, oh, I hope I can discover that sometime. Is that what occurs [laughter]?
Jay: Nicely, so I do learn a whole lot of scientific works as a result of there’s not so much on the market about these. After which I even have a range from India that’s utterly completely different, this cucumber bleeds pink sap. And it’s simply wild. It’s fairly neat. And it’s really a cucumber melon like these others. However that one’s actually neat.
Margaret: And you’ve got that?
Jay: Yeah.
Margaret: Wow.
Jay: It’s Ayra from India. It’s fairly wild. Nevertheless it goes with discovering them. Actually, it simply comes down to creating friendships, making connections. The scientific neighborhood has nothing on simply making connections in household and pals and all this.
There’s a number of which have varieties which have virtually gone extinct. However between me and another gardening pals, we’ve been in a position to preserve them alive. One in every of them simply was near extinction and we introduced it again and I discovered that it’s parthenocarpic, which suggests it is going to set fruit with out pollination, which is neat.
After which there was one other one about 5 years in the past that was just about, properly, extinct. There have been none of it left, and a few seed was given to a market farmer, and he occurred to develop it and ultimately have the ability to decide it out of those that he grew. After which now I’m providing that one. After which I additionally chosen one lately myself from the Scopattizo Barese. I chosen one which’s checkered, and so I simply nicknamed that one Checks, and it’s actually enjoyable. So the-
Margaret: The pores and skin is ornamental virtually, isn’t it?
Jay: Yeah. It acquired a bit little bit of a checkered sample to it.
Margaret: I simply wish to say, for your loved ones, what are those that everyone seems to be ahead to, or are additionally they sick of consuming cucumbers [laughter]? Do you or your loved ones, does anyone have favorites or ones to shout out simply within the final minute?
Jay: So I like the Striped Carosello Leccese, that’s my favourite. I like to return to that yearly. And that’s my commonplace for high quality in every little thing else.
One of many neat ones I’ve is a Facussa [above] that one’s on the market. However the striped Armenian or painted serpents are good for later within the fall. They’re fairly cold-tolerant and disease-tolerant.
However one of many takeaways is these are usually not essentially the following superfood or something, however they’re straightforward to develop. They’re light on the soil, they’re not onerous to develop like tomatoes. For some folks, tomatoes may be onerous, however they’re enjoyable and so they’re scrumptious. There’s a purpose why historic folks grew them and kings needed them 12 months spherical and issues like that. They’re enjoyable and so they’re scrumptious and so they’re nice. And if you happen to’re searching for one thing new and enjoyable to check out, look into Carosello, they’re nice.
Margaret: Nicely, Jay Tracy of cucumbershop dot com, which isn’t your major job, however is your love, and it’s great. And I’m so glad that we met. I’m so glad that you just launched your self to me, and I’m having enjoyable studying extra about cucumbers, due to you. So thanks, and I’ll speak to you once more quickly.
Jay: Thanks, Margaret. I actually recognize it. And I hope your backyard grows properly, too.
(All images offered by Jay Tracy.)
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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its thirteenth 12 months in March 2022. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear domestically within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the January 23, 2023 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).