THE GARDEN is my favourite escape from stress, after all, however as I’ve confessed earlier than on the podcast, I typically succumb to the lure of swiping my manner by Instagram throughout non-garden hours, like so many tens of millions of us modern-day residents.
Recently, I’ve been having fun with the brief, information-packed movies from immediately’s visitor, a gardener who goes by the display identify of Flora & Frost, and because of the way in which Instagram works, I can see that a lot of my keenest backyard mates additionally comply with her. So I assumed I’d invite her over to talk awhile and get to know her higher.
Flora & Frost’s actual identify, like mine, is Margaret, and he or she is definitely a physician primarily based in Minnesota. Moreover having a reputation in widespread, we apparently share the inclination for taking place analysis rabbit holes, looking for solutions to all of the questions that the expertise of gardening and being in nature elicits in us.
Learn alongside as you take heed to the Oct. 28, 2024 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You may subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
(Dragonfly picture high of web page by Flora & Frost.)
backyard esoterica, with flora & frost
Margaret Roach: Have been you named for a grandmother Margaret as I used to be? [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Effectively, a grandmother and mom. I’m truly the eighth Margaret in my household, imagine it or not. Yeah.
Margaret: Oh, O.Ok. So that you see, we’ve got all this in widespread. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Sure. Completely.
Margaret: And I ought to say to folks, due to your function as a doctor, you don’t use your final identify on social media, only for privateness causes and so forth and discretion. So that you’re Flora & Frost, you’re Margaret Flora & Frost.
Flora & Frost: Sure. Proper. I at all times say, “It’s not as a result of I’m notably mysterious, it’s simply because if somebody’s Googling me, I don’t need an unhinged video of me speaking about vultures to be the very first thing that pops up.
Margaret: Precisely. And we’ll get to that vultures video. [Laughter.] So that you’ve been gardening how lengthy? You’re in Minnesota, I believe you’re a Zone 4B, 5A-ish?
Flora & Frost: Appropriate. I’m proper in a bit of microclimate, as a result of we’re in Minneapolis, so the airport and all the pieces else makes it a 5A fairly than a 4B, which is all over the place surrounding us. But it surely will get chilly. [Laughter.] [Photo above from Flora & Frost’s garden.]
Margaret: And also you’ve been at it since not that lengthy, actually? Possibly 5 years or so?
Flora & Frost: Yeah, about 5 years. It began, I believe, the yr earlier than Covid, which was a pleasant time to get a brand new interest that then I might do at house.
Margaret: Sure. Not that we have been all at house or something.
Flora & Frost: Oh my God.
Margaret: Oh my goodness. And is it decorative, or greens, or a few of all the pieces, or how would you-
Flora & Frost: I perform a little little bit of all the pieces and it modifications every year. So final yr it was a giant deal with flowers. This yr we had a bit of bit extra in the way in which of veggies. And yearly I add increasingly perennials and notably natives.
Margaret: And have you ever had frost but on the market?
Flora & Frost: We now have not, fortunately. It’s been good to get pleasure from my flowers.
Margaret: Oh, good. Good, good, good. So, for me, fairly fast, after I started gardening, which was many a long time in the past, I spotted the most important backyard harvest of all was this limitless provide of the query, “Why, why, why?” [Laughter.] It was like my curiosity grew to become insatiable as soon as I began hanging round outdoors with crops, and bugs, and birds, and such. And all the pieces I checked out or touched prompted one other query. “Why, why, why, why, why?” And was that what occurred to you? Since you do these movies which can be form of, as I mentioned within the introduction, like these little journeys down the rabbit holes on specific matters.
Flora & Frost: Proper. Completely. I obtained into gardening initially after ending residency, which, as chances are you’ll know, is a very intensive time, numerous work hours. I lastly obtained into a daily profession, the place I had a bit of bit extra free time, and I had no concept what to do with myself. [Laughter.] I actually keep in mind Googling “hobbies for adults,” as a result of it was simply so international to me to have this free time. And I assumed, nicely, gardening sounds good. It’ll get me outdoors, it’s one thing I can do with my household.
However actually, the factor that has stored me with it’s, yeah, this limitless provide of enjoyable info, getting myself extra related to my environment, and I discover that the increasingly I study what I’m seeing, the extra I turn into in it.
Margaret: Sure. And in certainly one of your Instagram posts, you inform this anecdote about, I believe they have been from the 1870s, these two people, John and Anna Comstock. [John Comstock, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]
Flora & Frost: Comstock, sure.
Margaret: And I believe there’s a touch in that of why you do that Instagram account. Are you able to relay that to us?
Flora & Frost: Completely.
Margaret: Yeah.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. So John and Anna Comstock have been a married couple. John was a well-known entomologist who was truly one of many first, or the primary, entomology teacher at Cornell College. He confirmed up as a pupil and so they didn’t have an entomology professor [laughter] and knew lots about it. And so, the opposite college students have been like, “Can he simply train us?” And so they allowed it, as a result of it was the 1800s.
And he obtained married to certainly one of his college students, not super-scandalous, he was nonetheless younger and a brand new teacher on the time. And each of them collectively did numerous analysis in entomology, however Anna specifically, she was the primary feminine professor at Cornell and did numerous engraving work, finding out bugs. However she obtained actually into instructing folks about nature as a option to have them care extra about their surroundings and be extra intensive stewards of their surroundings.
And that’s actually my intent with numerous these movies, is I believe we get so disconnected with our environment, even when they’re issues we’re seeing every single day, that I discover the extra I study them, the extra I care about them. And I hope that that’s the case with different folks studying about their surroundings as nicely.
Margaret: Sure. Effectively, I do know that, for me, I’ve beloved… Once more, as a result of it was so acquainted to me, the expertise that you simply’re having, and I really like that you simply have been 5 years into gardening and I used to be considering, “Sure, sure, sure. I requested about that too then.” [Laughter.] And naturally, you have got many alternative rabbit holes you went down, however there have been some that have been widespread, and it was enjoyable.
I believe you probably did your first Instagram submit within the fall of 2021, and now you have got 96,000-plus followers.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: You could have this different profession, as you’ve defined, that you simply skilled for, it’s not such as you’re attempting to be a social-media influencer full time or something like that. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: I’ve been shocked by the variety of those that have adopted me, sure. I actually began this account as a result of I had a private Instagram account that I nonetheless have for household and mates, and I discovered I used to be posting about gardening lots. And I assumed, “Lots of these folks aren’t going to be super-interested on this.”
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: So I began a distinct one, and I assumed, “In the event that they’re occupied with gardening, they’ll comply with that.” And I made it public, as a result of I wasn’t speaking about something private, and it has simply exploded, which is mind-boggling, however I’m actually glad persons are having fun with it.
Margaret: Yeah. And your matters vary from seed-starting suggestions, to American meals historical past, to these vultures we have been speaking about for a second there. Talking of birds with disgusting desk manners. [Laughter.] [Turkey vulture photo from Wikimedia.]
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: So how would you describe your style, your principal areas of curiosity?
Flora & Frost: It’s wherever my mind is taking me in the mean time, to be trustworthy, but it surely began out extra issues in my rapid neighborhood, in my backyard, and I’ll have a query that pops into my head. This occurs on a regular basis in conversations with mates. Somebody will marvel a couple of query and everybody will say, “Oh, yeah, that’s a superb query,” however then no person will look it up.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: And I’m like, “You recognize we’ve got entry to the web, proper?” [Laughter.] I’m at all times the one which’s like, “Effectively, let’s discover out.” So it’s that with any query that I’ve that pops up. It began with my rapid neighborhood, after which numerous that is now viewers asking questions on, “Hey, I’ve at all times been inquisitive about this specific subject.” Generally I’ll begin studying about one thing, and that particular topic isn’t truly very fascinating, however a aspect article turns into the main focus. So it’s a fairly random course of, to be trustworthy.
Margaret: Yeah. It’s enjoyable. Like I mentioned, ever me outdoors, it’s identical to, “Why that? Why that? Why is that there? What’s that?”
Flora & Frost: Precisely.
Margaret: I’m simply this curious individual after I’m outdoors, much more than after I’m indoors.
Flora & Frost: Yep.
Margaret: As an example, you had a few items in numerous posts, a few items of seed beginning recommendation. And one which I beloved, I believe it was in March this yr, you say, “Cease rising seeds for the meals you want you ate and develop what you actually eat.” [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure. I believe a lot of social media is so aspirational, it’s so cultivated, no pun meant. And I believe it’s, the enemy of fine is ideal, so folks will develop issues as a result of they’re like, “Effectively, I ought to like this factor. I ought to like kale. I ought to eat extra lettuce.” However the actuality is, in case you’re eager to discover a connection together with your backyard and revel in it, you have to be rising issues that you simply truly like. And that’s O.Ok. We don’t have to gate-keep totally different greens.
Margaret: Proper. You steered potatoes, as a result of who doesn’t like potatoes, proper?
Flora & Frost: Sure. Yeah.
Margaret: Yeah.
Flora & Frost: We’re having fun with some pleasant homegrown potatoes today.
Margaret: Yeah. And so, talking of lettuce, which you simply mentioned, you have got one other submit that’s about ‘Iceberg’ lettuce and its story, which I had by no means heard. I didn’t know. So inform us the temporary model of the ‘Iceberg’ lettuce story.
Flora & Frost: Certain. So ‘Iceberg’ lettuce was first launched by the Burpee Seed Firm within the Nineties. And the factor that actually made it revolutionary is, as you recognize, ‘Iceberg’ lettuce has a very excessive water content material, it’s actually crispy. And in order that was the primary crop, no less than to my data, that was shipped trans-nationally in trains that have been full of ice.
And earlier than then, in case you have been within the middle of the nation, or in case you have been in a spot the place it wasn’t in your rising season, over the winter, you have been actually counting on greens that have been canned or would retailer for months, and that obtained sort of boring. So this was the primary alternative for folks to obtain meals from a distinct rising zone. And it was revolutionary in that manner. It was a proof of idea for the flexibility to ship meals. In fact, it has turn into problematic in some methods [laughter], however that was the preliminary proof of idea of delivery issues from different locations.
Margaret: Proper. So ‘Iceberg’ obtained shipped in these vehicles of ice across the nation, and yeah, I didn’t know that. And I didn’t even actually keep in mind how outdated it was, so it’s an oldie.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: And other people disdain it now and but, it’s a beautiful factor and it led the way in which in, as you mentioned, getting issues out of season from place to position and so forth.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: In order that’s fascinating. Additionally seed-starting associated, you have got this submit about perlite. What’s perlite? Which I didn’t actually know both. Are you able to inform us what perlite is? [Photo above from the Perlite Institute.]
Flora & Frost: That was fascinating to me. And once more, that was a type of, as I’m potting up a houseplant, I’m like, “What are these little white issues in potting soil?” That it by no means occurred to me to look into it. In order that’s perlite. It’s used to make soil extra mild and fluffy, so in case you’re potting up one thing that it’s not heavy and also you don’t drown your roots. However I had at all times assumed that it was one thing artificial and it’s not.
Margaret: It seems like styrofoam nearly.
Flora & Frost: It seems like styrofoam, sure.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: And I realized after the truth that some cheaper soil corporations will use styrofoam, which isn’t ideally suited. And mainly, the way in which you possibly can inform the distinction is, in case you press it between your fingers, if it crumbles and it’s arduous, that’s perlite. If it squishes, that’s styrofoam.
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: So perlite is definitely hydrated and heated obsidian, and obsidian is volcanic glass. So what occurs is, this volcanic glass is made after magma cools. It begins to hydrate over time from moisture from the air, or if it’s within the backside of a river mattress, it features water molecules over time. After which, if that’s heated in a very sizzling oven (which clearly needs to be industrial; you possibly can’t make this at house), then it pops like popcorn. So these water molecules begin to transfer extra quickly and develop. And since there’s no manner for that tumbler to be versatile, it primarily pops open and creates all of those little air pockets inside. In order that was fascinating, I had by no means considered it and then-
Margaret: Didn’t comprehend it was obsidian, didn’t comprehend it was volcanic glass, you recognize what I imply? I didn’t know. Or I didn’t keep in mind if I did know, in order that was nice.
Flora & Frost: Certain.
Margaret: Yeah. And a fascination that you simply had, that you simply expressed in certainly one of your posts about fall foliage and the colours that reveal themselves and so forth, was additionally one of many issues I puzzled about early on. And I keep in mind investigating, “What are these non-green pigments and why does that occur?” And so forth.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: Yeah. In order that’s one thing, like in the mean time, that we’re watching reveal in entrance of our eyes, proper?
Flora & Frost: Sure. I used to be investigating shade modifications after which, primarily, why leaves fall within the first place? Is it simply they die and fall off of the tree? And it turns on the market’s a way more lively organic course of occurring, the place the tree is actually slicing the leaves off.
However yeah, studying about fall shade, it provides one other layer of appreciation of the marvel that we’re seeing. And so, one of many issues that I realized is the yellow that we see in leaves, that comes from a household of pigments referred to as carotenoids, and so they’re there all summer time. It’s simply that that’s lined up by the truth that chlorophyll, that vibrant inexperienced shade, is a lot extra seen.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: However as chlorophyll manufacturing winds down because the season modifications, then that yellow begins to indicate by.
Margaret: Yeah, I obtained then fully geeky, I keep in mind one million years in the past, concerning the purple and reddish colours, the anthocyanins, and never simply those which can be revealed because the chlorophyll fades within the fall in some species, however the ones that sure crops that first come out of the bottom in spring not inexperienced, they arrive out of the bottom purplish or reddish-purple.
Flora & Frost: Certain.
Margaret: And for example, a few natives, twinleaf, Jeffersonia diphylla, and Virginia bluebells, one other native, Mertensia, numerous non-native woodland peonies, they arrive out of the bottom not inexperienced. And I used to be at all times like, “Why, why, why?” So yeah, all these rabbit holes. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Completely. Effectively, and typically, my understanding is, a few of these smaller child leaves have a point of anthocyanins for a similar motive that fall leaves do, is researchers assume that it most likely gives a point of solar safety for extra fragile tissue. So I really like that, that crops have sunscreen, too.
Margaret: Sure, and it might additionally deter predation from early-arising herbivores, as a result of these pigments aren’t as tasty, apparently. And there’s plenty of theories, so who is aware of?
Flora & Frost: Precisely. [Laughter.]
Margaret: I don’t know for positive. Yeah, but it surely’s so enjoyable to look these items up and browse and so forth. And such as you, I really like Latin plant names and what they reveal, the provenance that a few of them reveal. And plenty of occasions, it’s who the plant was named after. And also you say you develop numerous bee balm and Monarda, and you probably did a narrative about what that’s named after, for example.
Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure.
Margaret: Or who that’s named after. Yeah.
Flora & Frost: Nicolas Monardes. He was a Spanish doctor who lived within the 1500s. And most physicians, greater than a few hundred years in the past, have been physicians/botanists, as a result of we didn’t have artificial pharmacology at that time, and so it was folks utilizing plant treatments. So he lived in Spain. And curiously, even supposing Monarda is native to North America, he by no means traveled to North America. He would acquire a wide range of plant samples from the ports in Seville, after which write about them, examine them, however by no means truly made the journey over. [Cover of book by Monardes, above.]
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: However he was an fascinating fellow. He grew to become obsessive about tobacco, and thought that tobacco was a panacea, a cure-all, and so wrote extensively on all the ailments that tobacco might remedy. And it actually gained momentum for some time, after which folks weren’t getting higher, shockingly. [Laughter.]
Margaret: I’m so stunned.
Flora & Frost: Fell out of favor at that time, however yeah, he would record a wide range of contagious ailments and in any other case that could possibly be supposedly cured by tobacco.
Margaret: Proper. After which, I keep in mind you wrote one about Amsonia, the native bluestar, one other native that has a… Effectively, it’s truly a touring doctor, I believe it was named for, you mentioned.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. So I believe he was stationary, however the touring element was George Washington.
Margaret: Oh, O.Ok.
Flora & Frost: George Washington was touring by and was sick. And so he stopped on this city and John Amson was the doctor there. George Washington, apparently, and who is aware of if that is apocryphal or what have you ever, however he thought he was dying of tuberculosis. And John Amson was like, “Sir, it is a widespread chilly.” So I assumed that was simply humorous, as a result of we at all times speak concerning the man flu.
Margaret: [Laughter.] Oh, you do, do you? Man flu, I see.
Flora & Frost: My husband oftentimes, he and I’ll have the identical sickness, but it surely presents in a different way.
Margaret: I see.
Flora & Frost: And so, George Washington was very involved that he was very sick, but it surely certainly was only a virus and he was effective.
Margaret: In order that was John Amson for whom Bluestars or Amsonia are named. That’s fascinating.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: So these birds. You do typically cowl birds, and there have been the vultures, with their bare, featherless heads, since you’re going to stay your head into the heart of roadkill.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: Rotted, useless animals, you higher not have feathers, as a result of it’s arduous to scrub it off.
Flora & Frost: Precisely. Completely.
Margaret: Yeah. However you additionally did have a factor a couple of woodpecker, I overlook which one it was. Was it downy possibly? [Downy woodpecker, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]
Flora & Frost: The downy woodpecker.
Margaret: And the way woodpeckers are sort of constructed. Why don’t they get injured by banging their heads in opposition to… And that is one other factor that I went down the trail of years in the past, I keep in mind, looking for out extra about. So inform us a bit of bit about it, concerning the woodpecker’s particular attributes.
Flora & Frost: So their physiologic construction is fascinating. In order people, we’ve got this free floating bone in our neck referred to as the hyoid. And that’s the place our tongue is related to. So the bottom of our tongue connects manner down there in our throat. And these woodpeckers even have a hyoid bone, however their hyoid is of their brow, proper? So their tongue extends all the way in which from their brow, round their cranium, after which out of their mouth. And it’s very stretchy, so their tongue can prolong fairly a methods. However what scientists have discovered is that, when they’re pecking, primarily they use their tongue and contract it to function a helmet.
So while you get concussions, often it’s as a result of the mind bounces round throughout the cranium. It’s vital for us to have additional house within the cranium, as a result of if there are modifications in strain, you don’t need to have that be deadly, and the identical factor is true with woodpeckers. You need to have a bit of bit of additional house, however not when you’re banging your head in opposition to one thing. And so, that tongue will contract and maintain the mind in place in order that they don’t injure themselves after they’re pecking. Which is simply fascinating.
Margaret: I keep in mind in, I believe it was 2016, a conservationist, scientist, Stephen Shunk, I believe he’s from the Pacific Northwest. He wrote the Peterson Information to Woodpeckers that yr, and I keep in mind interviewing him. And he was telling me additionally that they’ve little or no cerebrospinal fluid in comparison with, say, the human mind, the place our mind sloshes round in our heads, and that may trigger, in each instructions, backwards and forwards, increase, increase, repercussions from concussion.
Flora & Frost: Precisely.
Margaret: And that they’ve a complete, as he mentioned, I believe he instructed me it was a “suite of variations.” They’ve particular ribs that different birds don’t have which have very robust muscle tissue connected to them, so the influence in that a part of the physique is minimized. Woodpeckers have been studied for designs for-
Flora & Frost: Helmet design.
Margaret: Yeah, helmet design for motorbike and soccer helmet, and medical analysis on shaken child syndrome.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: It’s very, very fascinating. They’ve specialised ft that they’ll actually maintain on higher and to floor themselves, so to talk, and extra-stiff tail feathers, I believe additionally, which… And you may see that in case you have a look at certainly one of them, a aspect view, an image of certainly one of them on a tree, their tail is actually pressed into the bark. Are you aware what I imply? To stabilize them additional.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: And so they have particular eye… Their nictitating membrane, I believe that’s the way in which you say it, the third or additional eyelid, it’s thicker than different birds’. They’ve their very own goggles. They’re really-
Flora & Frost: It’s so fabulous.
Margaret: … geared up. I believe it’s simply extremely cool. Oh, now I’m being loopy, sorry. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: You’re not being loopy. No, I like it. I really like after we see designs in nature that we then attempt to make the most of for ourselves. I did a video on dragonflies and their distinctive flying mechanisms, and we’ve got tried to adapt that to navy helicopters. So we’ll see all of those designs in nature that really are unbelievable, after which attempt to get as shut as doable for ourselves.
Margaret: Proper. So I used to be simply curious. So I confessed at the start that, there I’m, swiping, taking a look at your stuff. And do you discover inspiration typically on Instagram itself?
Flora & Frost: Completely. I really like following different instructional accounts, I really like following extra of the aesthetic gardening accounts as nicely. My backyard will not be essentially aesthetically pleasing, it’s as chaotic as my analysis fashion [laughter]. And so, it’s good to comply with different folks the place issues are very rigorously cultivated and simply benefit from the variety in gardens as nicely.
Margaret: So any favourite accounts you need to name out, otherwise you’re not going to share? None of them involves your thoughts?
Flora & Frost: Oh, gosh.
Margaret: I really like taking a look at numerous the general public gardens, clearly, that… You recognize, for inspiration, that’s one of many issues.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. I really like following botanical backyard accounts, and so New York Botanical Backyard, the Brooklyn Botanic Backyard, after all the Minnesota Arboretum, have to provide them their due. And a wonderful place to go to in case you do stay in Minnesota.
Margaret: Every other rabbit gap that you simply’re down in the mean time? Is there any topic that you simply’re exploring proper now?
Flora & Frost: Sure. So truly, my husband instructed me that I wanted to attempt to make the Krebs cycle fascinating. And I instructed him that’s past my functionality. [Laughter.]
Margaret: The Krebs cycle?
Flora & Frost: The Krebs cycle. So I don’t know in case you keep in mind from biology, the Krebs cycle is the cycle of mobile respiration that permits cells to generate power, primarily. And thru highschool, school, med college, I needed to study it and relearn it a number of occasions. I mentioned, “Effectively, I can’t make the Krebs cycle fascinating, however the man who it’s named after, Hans Krebs, could be very fascinating.”
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: He was a German Jewish man who was on the verge of creating these discoveries proper on the time that Nazis got here into energy, and so was kicked out of Germany. After which mentioned, “Effectively, no drawback.” Moved to England, had all these fabulous discoveries below the British Empire, and I simply love when folks get penalties of their very own actions.
Margaret: Sure.
Flora & Frost: So I really like that he’s now recognized below that framework as a substitute of that discovery occurring below Nazi Germany.
Margaret: Effectively, fellow Margaret, aka Flora & Frost, thanks a lot. And thanks for giving me a spot to go and go to and distract myself from the world in the mean time [laughter]-
Flora & Frost: Oh, thanks a lot.
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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its fifteenth yr in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear regionally within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Oct. 28, 2024 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You may subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).